Annette Mullin: It meant so much, I think, just in the moment to kind of bring light. But everyone has their own experience, their own thought processes. It’s not me to tell you what to think. But if something’s happened and we get to interact, even if it’s negative, I want to know about it. I want to see your perspective. I can’t tell you how to think. I can only manage myself. But I’d love to hear about the experience and just understand why you think that way. Because even if we think differently, your perspective is your perspective. And you have every right to it.

Heather Nelson: Welcome to Her Story Unscripted. I’m your host, Heather Nelson, a connector, business strategist, and someone who truly believes that the most powerful conversations happen when we stop performing and start being real. This podcast is a space for women to share honest, unscripted conversations about life, growth, and the experiences that have shaped who we are. No perfectly polished narratives, no pressure to have it all figured out, just real, authentic stories told exactly as they are. 

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Her Story Unscripted. I’m super excited to have Annette on the podcast today. Her and I have just connected virtually for the first time. Her background is so unique and so cool, and I just have so many questions about your journey and where you’re at now. So welcome to the podcast.

Annette Mullin: Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here.

Heather Nelson: I love it. So tell our listeners a little bit about what you do now, and then we’re going to dive into your journey through your career and life, and we’ll just get down to the nitty gritty stuff.

Annette Mullin: Sounds great. I am a coach and instructor for the Black Swan Group. The Black Swan Group is a group created by a visionary by the name of Chris Voss. He wrote a book called Never Split the Difference, which is about hostage negotiation techniques. How we got people to successfully, peacefully resolve a situation. Taping those techniques, and building them into the business world for business negotiation. So it was a bestseller from 2016. He’s a team of us that are all. Most of us are former hostage negotiators and other business negotiators throughout the United States, and we teach and coach people throughout the world.

Heather Nelson: That is so cool. I am so intrigued by what you do, and especially where you’ve been. I think that was when I got the email from you about being on the podcast. I’m always so inspired about everyone’s unique career choices and how they get into what they do. Yours was very, as soon as I saw that, I was like, yes, I have so many questions. So do you still live in Vegas?

Annette Mullin: I do for another week. I do. I live in Las Vegas, so yes. So I’ve been in Las Vegas for 29 years. I was a Las Vegas police officer for 24 of those 29 years. But I’m originally from the East Coast, Pennsylvania. But I came out here to Las Vegas because they were hiring, and it is the Las Vegas Police Department. It was then in ’97 was a progressive department, visionary, forward-thinking, smaller department that was growing. Because Las Vegas at the time was just getting so big, and so it was just a wonderful opportunity to be part of an organization that was growing. Amazing training, and I just have had it blessed to have been given the opportunity. And it was a fantastic career.

Heather Nelson: I love it. So when you were growing up, everyone asked the question like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Were you like, I want to be a police officer.

Annette Mullin: First, I wanted to be coroner. I was watching a show called Quincy, and I’m like, I want to be a coroner, right? And as I started to go to school, I realized that, okay, coroners have doctors. I don’t know when to do that, but the investigation was really intriguing to me. I was a Nancy Drew reader from a young age. But I don’t have any police officers in my family. It was just something through the media, really that kind of introduced me to the idea of doing police investigations. And so I always kept it in the back of my head, what can I do? And I thought, maybe I’d go into a criminalistic crime scene. Look at that first. So I went to advanced schooling. And while I was there, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department came out and recruited me. And at the time, I was living in LA. And the dean of my school said, look, Las Vegas is growing. You can still afford housing there. You’re not going to have a two hour commute there. Just all these great things about Las Vegas. 

So I came out here, and it’s just a city that never sleeps. I was really fortunate because it was a growing police department, and I had the opportunity to work somewhere new every few years. As I look back now, I had a dream career. Everything from working patrol and just seeing the world, you couldn’t believe the things that were happening in front of you as you’re trying to help people solve problems. But seeing the city grow, being able to work in straight investigations, sex crimes, internal affairs. I got to work at the police academy, helping training new officers. I got to be a hostage negotiator, which was incredible. Got to work in homicide. And at the end of my career, the last place I was, was a place called the Police Employee Assistance Program, where this place was to help officers find help. Because officers, just like everyone else, go through divorce. They go through stress. It’s really stressful to be a cop. There’s an officer involved in shooting. We had just had a horrific incident, the Mandalay Bay shooting happen, where so many people lost their lives. And so really helping officers find resources so they could heal, so they could thrive, so they get help for themselves and their family. So it was an honor to work there for my last four years. But I learned so much about just communicating with people, and trying to help people right where they are, and find places so they could heal.

Heather Nelson: So you were an officer during that shooting?

Annette Mullin: I was an officer during that shooting, yes.

Heather Nelson: I was there for a work conference, not for the concert, but for work in the event industry. So it was a work industry event, and I’ll never forget that day. I get chills thinking about it. I actually have had a survivor from the concert on my podcast because she’s here locally to me and a good friend of mine, and what an experience to be. I could see it from our hotel room. I could see what was happening from the hotel room because I was at MGM. I’ll never forget the amount of cops, police and sirens. It was insane. And being in Vegas, I’m sure everyone has been to Vegas, it’s lively and fun. People go to have a good time, and go to shows. And this is a carefree place. And then that weekend was just a whole nother experience. I couldn’t even imagine what it was like being in your shoes and going into a situation like that.

Annette Mullin: I can’t imagine being a tourist/work, and then this thing unfolding, and having to manage the rest of your week. I really can’t imagine what that was like for you. How startling.

Heather Nelson: Yeah. We had heard the gunshots. I always tell people it sounded like they were jackhammering. But I was like, why would they be jackhammering at 9:00 o’clock at night? Or it was later in the evening? And then we saw the police, and then we didn’t really realize what was going on. And then I woke up to a massive amount of texts from family, and they’re like, oh, my god, you’re in Vegas. Are you okay? I didn’t realize the magnitude of what had happened. And it was wild. So you obviously were on scene and part of that. What was your experience like?

Annette Mullin: I was not on scene. I was actually at home. But we, as part of the whole agency, mobilized pretty much based on where you were, what you were doing. So part of my response the next day was to be on the strip to manage just all of the people keeping them away from the actual scene itself. That scene lasted for days. I didn’t actually respond as an officer. Where I responded later was in assisting officers to get help. But what was so interesting is that we are, as the day was unfolding, like you said, you are learning and understanding the magnitude because it doesn’t make sense, right? When you are hearing about like, oh, because you hear mass shooting in, or you hear a shooting, you are like, okay, you get immune to it because you see them in the news and all that. But as it’s unfolding, you realize not only did I have employees that were attending the concert, I had employees that were working the overtime in the concert and not understanding, because everyone had to come in, and then trying to understand. I actually woke up to a text from my employee asking us to bring guns to the hospital, and I was so confused that she had been at the concert now helping people at the hospital. But in her mind, it was still happening that they needed guns at the hospital, and they were trying to get them. 

So just understanding, I have traumatized employees, and you have a whole strip that people don’t realize anything’s going on. So you’re watching people still gambling. As you’re learning what’s happening on the actual scene, talking to your peers that are out there, you’re like, wow, the city’s still continuing. How is this even possible? So my takeaway from that day was just kind of watching the confusion, trying to understand what was happening. But I have young kids, and my kids are telling me getting texts that they have friends at school whose parents haven’t come home yet from the concert, so they’re trying to figure out. It’s going to make me cry. Figure out what’s going on. And so I remember when I did get home that night, I brought my kids. Our church had a candlelight vigil just to help people. And I’m a single mom, so bringing my kids there so we could just process what had just happened as a community member. 

Annette Mullin: But the interesting thing about Las Vegas is we saw afterwards this community just came together no other. We had a new hockey team in town called the Vegas Golden Knights, who are big now. We won the Stanley Cup, but they were brand new, and they were going to have their first. Well, they’re the first ones showing up with food for officers, food for families. They’re at all the blood drives, so seeing these other people help us heal. But it was incredible to see for such a transient town how people came together, how people supported each other. I felt my kids got to see the best of this community. And as the year went on, my kids went to an art school, and the last event of the year was where the kids could present what they’re feeling through art. And most of the kids had a mentally based story, and it was like, wow, these kids are affected. You imagine as adults that were affected. This is all of their safety, all of their lack of control. So really, to see them be able to work through it through art, I think was really healing for everyone. It’s such a horrific time for our city, but also such a bright time for our city to see how people responded. So I feel grateful for the outcome to see that the best in people always shines through even during the darkest times.

Heather Nelson: Wow. I was going to ask you, when you’re talking about, what you’re doing now. I was going to ask, you do have kids, so you had children, obviously, while you’re in the police department. What was that like being in such an important job and role in your community, and also raising children? You’re seeing the worst of the worst, because you see the

crime and all the things that not many people get to talk about. How was that being a mom at the same time?

Annette Mullin: I think I sometimes feel bad for cops’ kids because those poor children, when my kids got cell phones, were reviewed every day. All like all their texts were gone through. I mean, because we do see the worst. And remembering sometimes of like, hey, it’s not us versus them. It’s realizing that most people are wonderful and good. We are seeing the minority, and so making sure I was aware of that when I was concerned for my kids. Just like any other parent, you’re managing work, you’re managing kids, having a good community around me always helped. I think that when my kids were young, they were really proud that I was a cop. There was career day at school, bring the car. That was really cool. You saw that change as they became old. I was like, Mom, can you not show up to school? It’s embarrassing. It’s difficult being a teenager. I’m really low. So that was like learning that there’s a time and a place, and that time had passed. But I think my kids were really proud. It was really nice when I retired. My kids got to speak, and I got to hear just some of it through their eyes. But I think I always remember, and I just want to be a good role model for them. I think that both me and their father were able to do that. He’s a police officer as well, to show to be a good community member, and it’s a difficult job. But trying to remember not to talk work around them because they soak in them. And just being aware that sometimes, I have to be careful and monitor because the world is sometimes not a safe place. But I want them to feel safe in this world.

Heather Nelson: I don’t prep any questions, so if there’s anything I ask you that you’re like, nope, I don’t want to talk about that. I’m curious, because I would say that in the last decade, there’s been so much stigma around police officers and how they handle situations. You’re not active anymore, but I’m sure you are part of that. What do you say to the people who feel some type of negative way toward police officers, sheriffs, anybody in law enforcement?

Annette Mullin: It’s interesting. Being a cop has so many responsibilities. You really are responsible for how you act, how you hold yourself. I do remember as a cop when there were times we would have to arrest parents. I would do my best, how can we do this on the children? Because this is what they’re going to remember. You take mom and dad away, how you respond to them is important. I just really remember that it was an important piece even before I had children. They’re growing up in it in a way that I hadn’t grown up. The world’s very different, and this is a really difficult thing that we have to do. So just trying to monitor myself, manage myself so I was a good role model. But also aware of this, it is affecting their lives. There were homicide scenes where if you got young kids around you, realizing the devastation that this is going to cause. We would do everything we could to help them. Just bring some joy just in that moment even if it was some simple things such as, gosh, I remember, we would blow up the little gloves to make like a turkey. Things like that for kids, it meant so much just in the moment to kind of bring light. Everyone has their own experience, their own thought processes. It’s not me to tell you what to think. But if something’s happened and we get to interact, even if it’s negative, I want to know about it. I want to see it from your perspective. I can’t tell you how to think. I can only manage myself. But I love to hear about the experience, and just understand why you think that way. Because even if we think differently, your perspective is your perspective. And you have every right to it. 

I think one of the great things about working for Las Vegas Management, I will never say enough great things about this agency, is we’re very forward-thinking. So when some of the social unrest had become more apparent, they had done a news article with what’s called the Review Journal about all the police officer shootings since the beginning of Las Vegas Metro. We were two agencies, and then we came together from the beginning to the current time. And because it was computerized, you could click through them really fast. And boy, it is just so unsettling when you see that our sheriff saw that article and didn’t like it. He didn’t like what it could mean. And so he went to the U.S. government and said, he went to what’s called cops and said, look, I’m concerned. I don’t like seeing it this way. This doesn’t look good. I don’t know if we have a problem or not. So we brought them in, and they did a six month review of our agency. 

Everything from training to how we use force, how our academy is run, how investigations are done when there is a force incident. And they came back with what’s called the collaborative reform of the Las Vegas Metroid Police Department, and there were 100 recommendations, I’m guessing. And the sheriff said, we are not going to pick which ones we’re going to do. We are going to do them all no matter how painful it is. We are going to progress forward. And he, to that point, was really big in the community. Making sure there was multicultural influence that he was meeting with to understand. So they supported us in this. Our communities did, and so we didn’t have the unrest that was seen in other places because we were so transparent. Here’s where we are. Here’s where we were. Here’s where we are. Here’s where we want to go. It doesn’t mean we’re perfect. But by doing that in Las Vegas, we really gave a voice to those that hadn’t been heard.

We gave a voice to those that had concerns, and we made progressive changes even though they were hard to see and hard to understand as an officer at the time, because we did them all, they were done. And you went with the program, and so we saw vast improvements. I feel how we handled things, de-escalation, bringing the cameras, body-worn cameras on. I think it speaks a lot to how we handled what could have been a really bad situation because we were forward-thinking. Your original question is, I like to hear about other people’s experience because it is their experience. There’s always something to learn, and there’s always a way to improve your process. 

Heather Nelson: I think too with media, the way that media is like, we all, as community people are only hearing the bad. Like there’s an officer shooting or the officer killed this person, and that’s all we’re seeing. But we’re not seeing all these departments and agencies that are actually doing really important great work. And understanding. I can’t even imagine having that job and having that responsibility. And you guys going on onto a scene that you have no idea, do they have a gun? Do they not? Who’s involved? What’s those circumstances are? You’re risking your own lives to save, protect all of us. But then, I have a hard time hearing people badmouth the police department. And of course, there’s going to be bad eggs and everything. With any type of job or industry, there’s always that. But give you guys some credit to the hard work and what you guys are up against every day.

Annette Mullin: And the nice thing is our agency offers a lot of opportunities for the normal citizen, whether it’s the Citizens Police Academy. You can go through it and kind of understand. But also, we even have something called the Mob Museum here. It’s a really cool museum in downtown Las Vegas, but they have like a shoot, don’t shoot, that you can put yourself through so you can actually see what you would do, how you would respond. And I think when people get to be put in that situation where they realize you’re reacting to what is going on in front of

you, they see how difficult those decisions are. When you can put yourself in the shoes of someone trying to make that decision, you realize that it is not easy. And as we are recording this in early August, we just had an officer killed yesterday, and ambushed yesterday. It’s a very dangerous job. It’s unfortunate that force has to be used. But we’re always looking for the minimum amount of force used to gain compliance. And sometimes, deadly force is necessary. But our agency will review every shooting afterwards to get better, to impose discipline if necessary. But most importantly, to ensure that we all learn as an agency what has happened, what others have faced. So if faced in the future, we can make as good a decision as possible.

Heather Nelson: What was it like being a woman in the police department? Because there’s not very many of you out there doing that work.

Annette Mullin: When I first came on, there were fewer. I was blessed that I had some trailblazers ahead of me. I definitely did. I think Deputy Chief Kathy Suey just created something called the Women of Metro to encourage other women that were in the police force to support each other. I just had such great role models ahead of me that really did the real tough work. I went into the academy and said, I’m going to work as hard as I can. I’m not going to be good at everything in the areas I’m weak at. I’m going to really work hard and keep my head down. So I tried to do it. But I never let being a woman affect me, either good or bad. So like I said, I think the work was done ahead of time that women were definitely accepted in the police force. It was when I went to homicide, they were going to make a really big deal that they were bringing the first woman supervisor to homicide. The local media wanted to do a piece, and I fought it. I said, I don’t know if I want to do that because I don’t want to put myself out there. And the director of public information came to me. She says, this isn’t about you. I get it. You don’t want the guys to give you a hard time, which they would naturally do. This is about young girls out there that don’t know they could be a sergeant in homicide. They could be a lieutenant. They could be the sheriff. We need you to do this so they can see that that pathway is possible. And I’m like, all right. That makes a lot of sense. So I did the piece. I felt that was interesting, why would it be news? That it was the first one. I don’t know, but it made sense why we would do it to encourage others too.

Heather Nelson: 100%. I love that. I would love to read that. I think that’s so cool. I have one more police department question, but I think it’ll tail into what you’re doing now, the work you’re doing now. You are a hostage negotiator. What is that?

Annette Mullin: Okay. So super fun. 

Heather Nelson: I have a good feeling I know, but I want to hear it from you.

Annette Mullin: Hostage negotiation or crisis negotiators, we as a team respond with SWAT when someone is barricaded. Meaning, there’s a crime that’s committed and they’re not coming out. Maybe they’re suicidal, and so we need to check and see if they’re okay. Or they literally have hostages. So we are a team that comes out, and we’re the people that talk to people to try to encourage them to come out. We always have SWAT. You always have force there in case it’s necessary. But our goal is to get on the phone or person face to face, and figure out what’s going on. How do we get in? How do we get you out peacefully so nobody gets hurt, and we can resolve the situation? It was a fantastic position. I did it for 10 years, and I led the team for two. It is a part-time gig in Metro because you would have your normal job. But when an incident occurs, you would respond out as a team, handle the situation, and then go back to your normal job.

Heather Nelson: What were your negotiation skills like? Were you 100% successful? 90% successful?

Annette Mullin: So overall, here is a stat for you. Overall, across the United States, with 100 being, everyone comes out because they taught you how often you think hostage or crisis negotiators are successful. Just give me a number.

Heather Nelson: I was thinking 90. That’s what sat with me.

Annette Mullin: 93, 94 % is the national average. So yes. So successful? No at times. People made the decision to take their own life before they came out. That’s their decision. But other than that, there were times when SWAT had to go in. That 7% where they’re like, we’re not coming out. Well, we still need to affect the NRS. We still need to make sure everyone is safe. We still need to make a decision so they will go in. So that’s kind of how it went. But yeah, it was really a lot. It was a lot of fun to do. My first hostage negotiation that I had to be part of was a guy that had robbed a bank, was holed up in a hotel. I’m on the line for the first time, and I’m really nervous. So you have a coach with you that’s helping you work through it, and I was absolutely awful. I think the guy came out because he felt sorry for me. It was really hard to get good at the crisis negotiations. Literally, I think he came out because he’s like, she’s awful. This poor girl. I feel bad for her. 

Heather Nelson: But at the end of the day, people just want to be heard just like anybody in the world, right? We’re dealing with a mental crisis. There’s something that’s personally going on. And if you have someone that is actually paying attention and wanting to hear and talk you through it, that’s what everybody wants in life. So I would imagine if you can just do that, get them to trust and feel comfortable with you, that’s how you’re successful.

Annette Mullin: That is how crisis negotiations work. It is truly that everyone has an innate desire to be heard and be understood. If you can provide that, if you can actively listen, not show judgment, because really, what do I have in common with someone that’s just robbing a bank? Very little. But there’s a reason why they’re there today. And if we can get that, if you can get them talking so that all of a sudden their stress level goes down, their logical thinking goes up, and it makes sense. Hey, there really is only one avenue out of this. It’s not probably the one you wanted. I’m not selling you a vacation. I’m selling you jail time. But there’s a way we can work through this together. And it’s when you do that, you build that trust-based influence, and so they can make it. The courageous step to come out and kind of face the music.

Heather Nelson: So because of all this work and this training that you’ve done through, that has now put you to where you’re the work that you’re doing now. Correct?

Annette Mullin: Absolutely. 

Heather Nelson: Talk about that transition. What was that moment in your career when you wanted to retire or were you forced to retire? Like, how was that transition for you?

Annette Mullin: Transition retirement was an interesting one. I have twins that were starting high school, and I wanted to be there for it all. Because as you know, 20 years of calling out, there were things that you’d miss. I just didn’t want to miss anything during the high school year, so I chose it 24 years ago. I’m like, it’s a perfect time. Actually, yesterday was my five year anniversary of retiring. So just in time for the school year to start, and it was great. I said, I’m not going to work for a year. I’m going to heal from what I’ve seen, from what I’ve dealt with. I’m just going to take a breath and just enjoy the kids. And that lasted about 8 months when I was always on the go. I felt I had recovered. I was ready to have some more purpose than just being

a new Uber driver. And because that’s what I felt like. I was just taking kids to events, and I wanted some more purpose. So I started to look for different things. 

I was working as a private investigator for a law firm. And when the opportunity came to work for Black Swan, there were two other crisis negotiators from Las Vegas Metro that worked for Black Swan, Dennis Flynn and they encouraged me to apply, and I got to meet Chris Voss and Derek Gaunt, Sandy Hine, Troy Smith. Incredible others that had done the work, and I really realized this is a company I could get behind. Chris Voss was an FBI lead negotiator. I ran the team. He’s been all over the world helping people effectively resolve situations. And he wrote this incredible book that made so much sense to me where it was all about, instead of pushing your agenda first, is making it about the other person first, this tactical empathy, learning about them first. And once you do that, once the people feel heard and understood when you verbalize what they’re saying, gosh, you just can move mountains because you’re working towards collaboration. So it’s been a great journey to be on. I love coaching. I love instructing and meeting people from all over. Like you had said earlier, just getting to see people where they’re at, learning about their jobs, what they do, what they need, how to get better, being able to encourage people and help support them in that vision to get better, it’s just been a great, dream job.

Heather Nelson: But this company doesn’t just focus on law enforcement? It’s leadership in any industry.

Annette Mullin: Absolutely. We coach all over the world. And it could be a CEO, it could be a teacher, it could be someone starting a new business. The business doesn’t matter. Any time you have a want or a need, you’re in a negotiation. So realizing that you can use tactical empathy first. Learn about your counterpart first. Verbalize what they’re all about so you can understand what they need, and then you can craft your own based on what you’ve been told. So it’s really neat that it just encourages folks, people that make gazillion dollars, to help them get better. It’s a fantastic feeling. And to a person that’s just starting out, how to encourage them to grow their business. It’s a unique opportunity

Heather Nelson: It’s interesting. Because when you start a business, because I also own a business, some people do it because of the leadership. They want to be in charge, and they want to run a team. But a lot of times, when you start a business, it’s because there’s a passion there for whatever it is that you’re starting. Whether it’s a a product or a service, there’s a reason why. And then as you grow, you’re like, oh, gosh, now I need to have employees. Now, leadership wasn’t my strong suit, but I have to lead this team. It’s a hard thing, and it’s not something that is easy for people to just kind of pick up. So I love that there’s support out there for that.

Annette Mullin: Absolutely. It’s learning about each employee as an individual. Even though you both may have the same passion, so that’s why you’re both in the same field of work, in the same areas, you see things differently. And it could be just based on their conflict personality type. Until you know what their conflict is, you don’t even know how to speak their language, how to speak to their basic needs because you don’t see things the same way. Even  growing up in the house with the same people, same parents, same schooling, you still see things really different. And so once you recognize that, it can speak to how they manage conflict, or speak to how they have their needs, then you can actually move them towards, trust towards, and then you can use your trust based influence to get them across the line. I think that’s really important, especially as you’re taking on new employees. And as you’re growing, to really learn about them as individuals and how you can speak into their truth so they can grow.

Heather Nelson: That’s so good. I think the one thing for me, at least, because I do run a smaller team for leadership that’s hard for me is like, I don’t like conflict. I know there’s a lot of people out there that don’t like conflict. So if something happens, you’re like angst because you have to have this conversation about why this was good, or why this was bad. Do you have advice for people who are sitting in that space of conflict? It’s actually a good thing. And I know this because once you have the conversation, you feel relief. But then also moved things in a positive direction. But how do you get through that initial fear? 

Annette Mullin: Well, two things with this is we use something called the accusation audit. When you want to have difficult conversations and it’s letting them know before you get into that conversation, you’re thinking about everything that the other person is thinking about you, the good, the bad, and really important, the negative. What are they thinking about you? You probably think that I’m an awful supervisor. You may even think that we have no business talking about this. And just getting into that, using those accuracy not to get into what they’re thinking first and then saying, would you be against us sitting down, having a conversation about A, B, C, or D. Putting in the work ahead of time to realize that you’re trying to relieve them of the pressure of the stress as well. So using that on it, but realizing that the fear of loss that your employee or peer has is the biggest motivator of human behaviors. That fear of loss in which you can figure out, what is the fear that they have? What’s behind the behavior? What’s behind the conflict? If you can dig there, then you can get towards what the identity issues are. 

What’s first in addressing those. Because negative emotions don’t go away if they’re unexpressed, if they’re not out there and we need to get those out. But it’s overcoming our own fear of that difficult conversation. The goal in the end is good. But when you realize that this is a hard conversation, you realize that this is hard, but the goal is getting better. It’s received more. You’re kind of working on not only relieving your own brain of the pressure, but the other side’s brain as well. You’re trying to connect with them so they can be receptive to it. It’s never easy to have the default conversation. But if you can have it, you’re both going to grow. You’re going to look back on and say, all right, it’s never as bad as we think. But just getting it out of it at first. But I think hitting it head on, especially when there’s something negative, is saying it first versus waiting. Because when you wait to bring out that elephant that is just sitting there and you’re not paying attention, they’re not paying attention, all that negative unexpressed emotions there. Getting it out first, I think, really relieves both sides of the pressure so it can be discussed and handled, and then follow up as well. Like, hey, seems like this was a difficult conversation to have. Checking in how they’re doing, and just giving them the space to talk to you about how they felt about and how they feel moving forward.

Heather Nelson: That’s why I always say, the more honest you are on how you feel, or just having honest conversations and being authentic can move the needle in so many positive ways. You have to say something differently, and I’m like, no, just say the truth. And I tell this to friends, people always call me for advice with consulting, they’re like, ah, this client, or I’m working with this vendor, and I’m having a hard time. I’m like, just be honest. Tell them their reality. I’ve had conflicts. I’ve had a call back to my rental days, having hard conversations with people. And I felt the more honest I was and gave them the reality of life, this is why we do this. This is what happened. And being honest, it always went the way that I wanted it. And it was like, okay, that wasn’t so bad.

Annette Mullin: Absolutely. Because the moment that you don’t tell the truth, and all of a sudden, you’re not trustworthy, and that’s the last thing you want to do because you’re ruining a long term relationship where you can have really difficult conversations. You can be really assertive. It’s how you approach it. It’s your tone you use. It’s the words that you use that really make the difference. And letting people know, instead of just putting the bad news, just say, bad news is coming. I want you to be ready for this. This is going to be a really difficult conversation. Letting them know, hey, be ready for it. Brace yourself. And then here we go.

Heather Nelson: So you work with leaders all over the world, all different industries. Is there a common thread of leadership that you find is missing? Or like the comment when you’re working with a client that comes up time and time again that you can kind of speak on?

Annette Mullin: What I think is really interesting. We teach something called the Black Swan skills. We teach the core four, whether its labels, mirrors, dynamic silence, and summary. We can teach it. But if you’re not willing to put in the reps and to try it out, you can’t expect in those really difficult conversations to be able to use it. You need to do this stuff in your day-to-day walk of life for it to come across in the big things. We practice how you play. You have to do the work. What I find universal is, people will have all these degrees, and they don’t realize is you still have to practice. You need to role play. You need to prepare yourself for that conversation. Because once you do, like you said, the relief is there. You are successful in your head. Even if it’s just a role play, you have success. You go in with more confidence. And I think when we get to role play with a CEO, okay, you’re going to have this difficult conversation. I’m going to be an employee. Let’s go. And they’ll make all these mistakes. They’re human just like everybody else. But no, okay, I like how I did this. I didn’t like how I did this. Then we do it again. Just working through it, everyone wants to get better. But if you practice first, you’re going to be so much better than just doing it off the cuff. And what I always find to be really nice is how relieved they are. They’re all scared to role play because everyone hates it. But that’s how you get better. And that stress, even though it’s a role play, that stress is good for you because it’s putting yourself in the real situation. You’re going to be stressed, so getting that rep in, and doing it successfully really helps everyone. So that’s what I really enjoy. Role play is universal. Practicing beforehand is universal. If you just do it, you’ll come out so much better on the other side.

Heather Nelson: So good. So good. You have quite the experience. I think I mentioned that I just love how you were so involved in this career of being in the law enforcement world, to now find your little thread that can come out of it, that you can lean into. And I say, we, as in conversations that I have with other women, we love what we do so much. We thrive off of it. And we’re experiencing it, but we’re feeling like there’s more for us. And how do you pick that one thing out of what you’re so good to go down the path to this new space. And so, I love that. That’s what you’ve done, and it’s inspiring to hear that. Okay, we can do this. We can do hard things. We can be invested in a career, and finding something on the other side that’s still relatable, but using the skills and experience that you’ve had before.

Annette Mullin: Yeah. It’s about finding your passion. Because passion, you feel purpose, you feel fulfilled, and it’s not work, right? I think like you is when you get to and help others, learn about others, see other people grow, I say, gosh, it’s selfishly satisfying. It really is. But they’re doing the work. You’re just providing a pathway with your experience. Like I said, if you find your passion, work is just so easy to do because your purpose is there.

Heather Nelson: So good. Is there anything we didn’t talk about through your career, through your life that you think somebody would be inspired by.

Annette Mullin: I think we’ve talked about so many things. I just think that for women, courage is always the first step. Taking that first step to the unknown. But I think in this day and age, find your tribe. I have a group of women and men. But a great group of women around me that I can go to, that I can be real and authentic with when I’m failing, and they encourage and lift me back up to keep going. The courage isn’t always getting up. The courage noise is, tomorrow, I’m going to do better here. I’m going to make mistakes, but I’m going to get better. And knowing that your tribe is there to support you, I think is really important. Just be courageous, be bold, be audacious. What is your vision for a happy life? Take that first step. Even if you have to take eight steps back, keep moving forward because there’s the joys there. The joys in doing the hard things once they’re done. The joy really is there, so just keep going.

Heather Nelson: I love that. It is so interesting that that is what you said. Because right before this podcast interview, I just texted six women who are in my life who either see me for who I am or challenge me, and I just invited them over for lunch because I felt like we needed some girl power. We’re all in this stuck space of like, what’s next for us? And I was like, I’m gonna bring them all together. I literally just texted all of them. 

Annette Mullin: I’m happy for you that you have that too. That’s fantastic. Oh, it’s great, especially to be authentic. It is so easy to be authentic. It is so easy to like, everything’s great, happy, happy, joy, joy. It’s really wonderful if people that you can let them, hey, this is where things fall. Or they can say, hey, this is where I need support. Or this is where it’s not going to have those sounding boards. So wonderful. I love that.

Heather Nelson: That’s so funny. It’s meant to be. I love it. Annette, thank you so much for reaching out and wanting to be on this podcast, and sharing your story and your journey. I absolutely loved this interview. I’ve written down a few notes that really stuck with me, and so I know that this episode is definitely going to inspire others. Thank you so much for being here.

Annette Mullin: Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for what you’re doing. It’s bringing so much joy to others. So thank you very much.

Heather Nelson: Thank you.

That’s a wrap on today’s episode of Her Story Unscripted. Is something you heard today made you feel a little more seen, a little less alone, or just got you thinking that’s exactly why we’re here? If this episode resonated with you, I’d love for you to share it with another woman in your life who needs to hear it. And if you haven’t already, make sure you subscribe wherever you listen, or catch us on YouTube so you never miss a conversation. I’m Heather Nelson. Thank you for being here, for listening, and for showing up for real stories. I’ll see you next week.